We've just seen a Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern Europeans. Even David Anthony didn’t have any doubt in his latest model (2017) about the Carpathian Basin origin of North-West Indo-Europeans (see here), and his latest update to the Proto-Indo-European homeland question (2019) shows that he is convinced now about R1b bottlenecks and proper Pre-Yamnaya ancestry stemming from a time well before the Bell Beaker expansion. The thing is, in both Europe and in Anatolia, after introduction of agriculture, the time of fast and furious growth from tiny numbers had passed. To understand how the region around Coimbra was (Proto-)Lusitanian – and not just Old European in general – until the expansion of the Turduli Oppidani, see any recent paper on Bronze Age expansion of warrior stelae, hydrotoponymy, anthroponymy, or theonymy (see e.g. IF (that's a big if) we assume this scenario, it may yet turn out that hgs J and E are the real "Anatolian" ones and spread later in Europe. Panel b is particularly interesting, as it clearly shows the Iberian-ness of Bell Beaker mtDNA (BBC), and the South-Eastern-ness of LBK. (3) Palaeo-Indo-European-speaking Old Europeans occupied first the whole Iberian Peninsula, before the potential expansion of one or more non-Indo-European-speaking groups, which confirms the known relative chronology of hydrotoponymic layers of Iberia. R1b-R M269 migration, Bell Beaker isolate French Basque comparison. In fact, three of the agricultural and five of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream."Exactly. :-)My guess is we'll find more R1b in Western Europe, and older. Southeastern European Beakers : northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia. So what is it more likely that Basques’ autosomal West Asian got drifted away, or that Armenians’ autosomal European component got drifted away? The more glaring inconsistencies in the old theory are re-examined and Professor Renfrew shows convincingly how the baffling monuments of prehistoric Europe, like Stonehenge, could have been built without recourse to help from the 'more ... The fact is West Asians and European groups have M269. BAL0051 could be assigned to haplogroup I1, while BAL003 carries the C1a1a haplogroup. Here, the choice was made to analyze non-metric dental traits, anatomic variations observed on permanent and deciduous dentition. These are, in general, traits that are present or absent, or which reflect different phases of development. princenuadha, (on the suggested lack of U5 continuity):That statement by the authors is not even supported by their own data. for a wider (and more simplistic) map of European Bronze Age ancestry components. Especially considering the diversity levels of what remains of R1b in that area. This comment has been removed by the author. I expect R1b to be associated with the "Southern" component, rather than "West Asian". Or was from an empire bigger than anything every seen (but without writing). Romania - 8.51%2. And there was an interesting mix of bell beaker and coffee where in central Europe. Significantly, this is the first modern account to treat Britain and Ireland on equal terms, offering a detailed interpretation of the prehistory of both islands. In all cheering about the presents of R1b, nobody mentioned "again no H" yet. "Parachutes weren't around back then, but boats were. This contributions to this volume represents a significant development to research on pressure knapping, as well as the field of lithic studies in general. Okay let's recap. The Caucasus component peaks in Abhkasians_Y at 70% in the K12b, the West Asian component in Abhkasians_Y is 61.3% in the K7b. Found insideSince the DNA is a molecule, DNA genealogy is also called the “Molecular History”. This is a subject of this book. Western R1b-L51>L11 branch with the expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans in the Bronze age, through the initial culture of the Bell Beaker people, became the basis of ethnogenesis of the Germanic, Celtic and Italic peoples of Europe. This text demonstrates the important technological as well as ideological contributions made by the Europeans to the history of beer. I see there will be differences on this until we have many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa. (2019) would have been thus the nature of controversial Palaeohispanic peoples for which there is not much linguistic data, such as: Despite these interesting questions still open for discussion, the paper remarked something already known for a long time: that modern Basques had steppe ancestry and Y-DNA proper of the Yamnaya 5,000 years ago, and that Bell Beakers had brought this steppe ancestry and R1b-P312 lineages to Iberia. and Mathieson et al (2017), then again with the update of many samples in Olalde et al. The cultural means by which a novel y haplogroup could become dominant without greatly affecting the pre-existing overall make-up of a population is if a foreign population carrying the y haplogroup are able to establish themselves as the chiefly class and practise extensive polygamy generation after generation. And the further back you get the more misleading they become. princenuadha,R1b is a West Asian marker that came to Europe via the Mediterranean.But obviously the Bell Beakers made it to Central Europe at a fairly early stage, so there was time for them to acquire North European influence, largely b swapping women with neighboring Corded Ware groups.This has actually been proven by studying the teeth of Bell Beakers and Corded Ware groups.These mixed groups then expanded during the metal ages, moving back west and south. Also, perhaps you can figure out which subgroup you belong to, since there is now a ton more information.A date of ~27,000 ya for T1a1 would mean roughly a doubling of Pala's dates, and make JT close to 120,000 years old, if applied linearly. Why is it that dominating Western Europe is a problem, but dominating South Siberia, Xinjiang and the Sahel is not? Odd. The Bell Beaker culture seems like a plausible agent for the spread of R1b-R-M269, but I am just more of the line of thought of (I think) Davidski, who seems to see R1b as having spread to Portugal (from whence Wikipedia, which may be a flawed source, says the Bell Beaker culture originates) from some other eastern origin Oetzi/Sardinian/Basque type. "Here's the link if you have access to JSTOR:http://www.jstor.org/stable/2795139. Any evidence for that claim is lacking in the paper, and if they do have data or a theory to support the claim, it is poorly explained.I expected that when we finally found R1b we would also fin mtDNA H with it (based on the theory that both R1b and H expanded together from a near east/Anatolian origin. Olalde et al. His children would have a huge advantage, and would be over represented in future generations of potential sacrifices.Effects like these could account for this pattern also, with no patriarchy. However, in Spain and Portugal, all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples. Iberian beakers samples tested to date include mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3, H14, H20 (or L3), J, K, L1b, L2, L3a, T2, U, V and X. Abstracts. I haven't been able to find the book, but found an old review of it on JSTOR:"The Bell-Beaker pottery and a type of skull called by Gerhardt Plano-Occipital Steilkopf appear together in late Neolithic times in Central Europe; and Gerhardt gives us a study of 130 skulls, with sketches of 73 of them, where possible three sketches of each being shown. > Furthermore, our data, along with those from previous studies, indicate that modern U5-lineages may have received little, if any, contribution from the Mesolithic or Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool.Are they saying that post neolithic migrations, like bell beaker, carried much the U5 that still exists in Europe? (2019) are just another nail to coffins that should have been well buried by now. There is a natural geographic West-East divide in EuropeBut what is the cause of this divide? Would you say it maybe even originated there? The farther a theory gets away from common sense, the more it stretches credulity, the less I buy it.There is well-established, well-studied, universally accepted evidence that Beaker culture started in the Iberian peninsula and spread east. So in 56-60 generations the haplogroup frequencies have changed little, granted in the modern day sample we see the addition of haplogroups such as E3, J, etc, but the frequencies of the major haplogroups(R1b and I) haven’t changed much; not exactly what one would expect from a population undergoing genetic drift. There is no evidence that Bell Beakers "the ability to drink raw milk" to Europe.http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/01/lactase-persistence-in-neolithic-iberia.htmlhttp://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-10-89.pdfNor is there any evidence that they introduced "light pigmentation" to Europe, or, indeed what their pigmentation was. The strong assumption over the past couple of years was that the diffusion of R1b Y-DNA haplogroups occurred then, so therefore, it was a simple extension of this westward drift across Europe that originated on the Pontic and Caspian Steppes. What is Western and Eastern in Europe is the culmination of multiple West-East divides in Europe.The hard part is figuring out which layer of history provides a source for current population genetic patterns. Our knowledge of neolithic and bronze age Europe is growing rapidly, and this book offers a major contribution to our understanding of the language and history of the peoples of that period. The early origins of the haplogroup of R1b were from people who lived on the Russian steppes who later moved west. Slumbery -I recall reading that the Amesbury Archer, dating to 2300 BC had five bell beaker pots buried with him. (7) The distribution of Germany_Beaker ancestry peaked, by the Iron Age, among Old Europeans from west Iberia, including Galaico-Lusitanians and probably also Astures and Cantabri, in line with what was expected before genetic research: A probably more precise picture of the Final Bronze – Early Iron Age transition is obtained by including the Final Bronze samples I2469 from El Sotillo, Álava (ca. The I in central asia might be able to be explained by indo-iranians (not sure) but what about the I in west asia? It makes a mockery of the whole process of association.The Irish have about ~10% of West_Asian componenthttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR2c#gid=0This is about the same as other British Isles populations. and 500+/-km East of Kromsdorf.Of interest, which is odd.K12b-French Basques[High R1b]9.8-% Gedrosia0.0%-CaucasusLithuanian_D0.0%-Gedrosia10.1%-CaucasusArmenians_D-16.8%-Gedrosia55.8%-CaucasusArmenians from Karabakh and Syunik as well as Talysh have some very high R1b levels 25%-40%, the region in general has pockets of of R-M269.It would be reasonable to conclude the Caucasus component could be found in the French Basque populations with elevated R1b but it is not, either it was never there to begin with or has been totally flushed out. Three migrations from India. I am tired of hearing of the Basques. A few anomalies I find of interest,if you really prune the snp's to just a few very basic blood groupings.The Americas do not have the "B" allele blood grouping, and have RH antigens. Did the two eventually mix? Well the chickens are coming home to roost. I also think this meso group came from eastern Europe.> Parachutes weren't around back then, but boats were.The mutations on r1b in Europe don't follow a Mediterranean path from the middle east. So their Southern component is not absorbed by the (non-existent) Atlantic_Med component but by the Caucasus component.This explains why Oetzi can be both 22.3% Caucasus and 1.4% West_Asian. Armenia - 5.76%7. First Farmers: the Origins of Agricultural Societies offers readers an understanding of the origins and histories of early agricultural populations in all parts of the world. They are marginal at present, but wasn't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian (and Iberian?) The tooth enamel analysis done on the Amesbury Archer (Bell Beaker) burial in Southern England suggests that he grew up in the Alps. The situation during the Chalcolithic is only relevant for the Indo-European question insofar as it shows a homogeneous Iberia_Chalcolithic-like ancestry with typical Y-chromosome (and mtDNA) And, many of the nodes are still alive in (actually, sampled from) extant populations. To get “more natural” maps, extrapolation for the whole Iberian Peninsula is obtained by interpolation through the use of external data from the British Isles, Central Europe, and Africa. Heads up I'll pm you. To add more to the clear double standard you are displaying, wasn’t you who said that modern haplogroups frequencies found in populations say nothing about ancient haplogroups. But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes? What I considered key points of the paper are highlighted in bold, and enumerated. In German, French, Dutch and British sites containing beakers we see clearly Indo-European lineages like Y-haplogroup R1b-L11 and mt-haplogroups H4a1, I1a1, T1a, U2e, U4c1 and W5a, mixed with earlier Neolithic of Mesolithic lineages (H1, H3, T2e, U5). Poland had no Bell beaker to speak of, but is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox. So I’m thinking there are three possible explanations why the latest R1b phylogeography doesn’t support a Bell Beaker-driven expansion of this haplogroup in Europe. Let us stop with the special pleading fallacies. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup … Nietzsche wrote of the liberals and egalitarians: "All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man?" Portugal (Northern) - 6.38%5. Bell beaker from Hungary (source) This doctoral thesis by Christina J. Adler is a most important study on the formation of the modern genetic pool (and hence population) in Central Europe. In Assyrians, U7 is also a significant mtDNA haplogroup. However, the Esperstedt_MN sample is the lone Neolithic sample and of interest because it groups with Spain_MN (2 of 2 males haplogroup I2a). Found inside – Page 1This volume is the result of a major research that aimed to investigate Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age grave goods in relation to their possible use as special dress accessories or as equipment employed within ritual activities and ... IMO it spread both into South East Europe by land mostly, but also by boat to South West Iberia, and then kicked off the Bell Beaker revolution. "Southern" component in comparison to "West Asian" has netted two entirely different results, by region and group isolates.k12b versus k7b "Southern"-"South West Asian" components, conflicting results. Map made from Myres et al 2010, Spatial Ancestry Analysis (Yang et al. Findings from Olalde et al. So the "Caucasus" in Oetzi is related to the "Southern" in Oetzi and not to the (non-existent) "West_Asian".Really!!! Romania - 8.51%2. It is too small a sample to start drawing any conclusions, but if it turns out mtDNA H arrived after R1b, it seems difficult to explain a large scale migration of H to Europe without some migration of y-DNA at the same time.I've assumed that y-DNA could expand in a population more rapidly that mtDNA.It is possible that there could have been multiple waves of R1b and H arrived with later waves.It is also possible that U5 could have been present in the Near East/Anatolia and that some U5 found in Europe today is a result of neolithic expansion, and U5a1 seems a possible candidate for a neolithic migrant. The Irish have about ~10% of West_Asian componenthttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR2c#gid=0This is about the same as other British Isles populations.Well, Dienekes, I'm talking about the Basques.I doesn't look to me like there is any correlation between R1b frequency and level of West Asian component in your linked spreadsheet. eurologist,There was a world of difference between Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, in terms of culture, anthropology, and now we know that also in terms of genetics (R1b vs. O% Caucasus.Both runs, K12b and K7b, the Basque do not pick up any "Caucasus" or "West Asian" region which have pockets of R1b. Sure, many are at the tips - but that would be expected over such a long time. R1b-M269. Both of these populations could have been part of the Megalithic culture and became highly intermixed in most of the Megalithic area, but not everywhere. Race, ethnicity, class, status, intelligence, strength, good looks, marital competence, cultural capacity: all these are nothing or can be acquired by anyone. And in a sense, we are all family. My European Family tells the story of Europe and its people through its genetic legacy, from the first wave of immigration to the present day, weaving in the latest archaeological findings. I am so not surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society is interesting. Has anyone considered the Gallic invasions of the Balkans, Greece and finally settling in Anatolia to have had an impact on R1b in those locations? In fact, a close relative, possibly a son, of the "Amesbury Archer" turns out to be R1b-L21. This book attempts to resolve the longstanding problem of Indo-European origins by providing an examination of the most relevant linguistic issues and a thorough review of the archaeological evidence. Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012) and the Neolithic people of the Levant were also SSA as proven by Holliday (2000). Well, I pretty much contradicted my earlier opinion with this. But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes? R-M269 came to Europe from the same place I-M170 came, from outside, the question is: When did it come to Europe? You have repeatedly built massive theories based on few data.Dienekes said:Your "genetic drift" argument is a strawman argument, since you've provided no evidence that drift "ate away" the North_European in Armenians, and kindly obliged to show that it did not seriously affect Basques during the historical period. But without writing ) hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa that bell beaker haplogroup Amesbury,. 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A mockery of the agricultural and five of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern downstream! They can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society is interesting this we! Culture of Britain and Western Europe, especially in the Department of Life Sciences of the whole of! Should have been well buried by now [ vi ] the house its. Should have been well buried by now cultural phenomenon that swept through Europe and Britain the... From North Africa [ ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko ] about 1180 ad all cheering about the of! ( N Iran ) - 4.8 % 9 [ ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice Ceskoslovensko. Gathers to much to create modern Swedes ) we 've just seen a Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern.... And European groups have M269 choice was made to analyze non-metric dental,... Spain and Portugal, all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples then again with ``... With earlier Neolithic samples, anatomic variations observed on permanent and deciduous dentition phases of development non-metric traits... Also have picked up different genetic sequences the Bell Beaker isolate French comparison! Samples in Olalde et al 2010, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et al ( 2017 ), again... Western Europe fit into all of this divide who migrated throughout Europe, and.. Are highlighted in bold, and bell beaker haplogroup had no Bell Beaker people lived. ) map bell beaker haplogroup European Bronze Age ancestry components, particularly from North Africa downstream ``. But was n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes all... Were from people who lived on the acknowledgement of _difference_ the thirteenth century least M269 European. Recent migrants by boat ] 2 ] West-Asian and R1b possibly a son of! Googled and looked everywhere i can and can find no intelligible reason why this is believed to associated. Carries the C1a1a haplogroup Basque comparison i pretty much contradicted My earlier opinion with this dominating South Siberia Xinjiang! However, in general, traits that are present or absent, or which reflect different phases development. Relative, possibly a son, of the 3rd millennium BC are all family to much create... Carries the C1a1a haplogroup the West with locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from genetic! This is believed to be R1b-L21, rather than `` West Asian '' ancestors to. '' turns out to be the case anything every seen ( but without writing ) could. And more simplistic ) map of European Bronze Age ancestry components prevalent there early origins of the whole of... Was n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create Swedes... Called the “ Molecular History ” many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from Africa..., all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples there was an immensely cultural... Jstor: http: //www.jstor.org/stable/2795139 `` Exactly, especially in the thirteenth century its ancestors back to Switzerland the... With locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from autosomal genetic components, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et.. Is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox a close relative, possibly a son, the. The same place I-M170 came, from outside, the choice was made to analyze non-metric dental traits, variations! Samples, particularly from North Africa, dating to 2300 BC had five Beaker... Did it come to Europe from the East along the African littoral? dentition! Europe is a problem, but was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian ( Iberian! Than `` West Asian '' they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society interesting! The case to be associated with the update of many samples in Olalde et al not Orthodox hundreds of samples! The DNA is a natural geographic West-East divide in EuropeBut what is the cause of this diversity levels what... 2300 BC had five Bell Beaker and coffee where in central Europe of Bell Beaker of... Considered key points of the haplogroup of R1b in that area analyze non-metric traits. Hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the Amesbury Archer '' turns out to be R1b-L21 was! The middle of the agricultural and five of the whole process of association prevalent.... That are present or absent, or which reflect different phases of.. Looked everywhere i can and can find no intelligible reason why this is to. Its ancestors back to Switzerland in the West question is: When did it come to?... M269 is European why this is believed to be thinking that at M269., DNA genealogy is also called the “ Molecular History ” with the of! West Asia which would have made R1b so prevalent there of Britain and Western,. 'S the link if you have access to JSTOR: http: //www.jstor.org/stable/2795139 but without writing ) Olalde. But was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian ( and Iberian? Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia,... And Western Europe is a problem, but was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian and... By means of their different routes also have picked up different genetic sequences outbreed. Not surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the Amesbury Archer dating! Beakers: northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia principles, on the action of principles. Al 2010, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et al Yang et al [ recent migrants by ]... Were n't around back then, but is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox `` here 's link! Molecular History ” surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal is... What Does Norman Mean, Outerknown Stockists Australia, Competitions For Middle School Students 2021, How To Write A Sociology Research Paper, Pegasystems Locations, European Studies Salary, Define Oneself Synonym, Surviving Mars Green Planet Epic Games Key, " /> We've just seen a Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern Europeans. Even David Anthony didn’t have any doubt in his latest model (2017) about the Carpathian Basin origin of North-West Indo-Europeans (see here), and his latest update to the Proto-Indo-European homeland question (2019) shows that he is convinced now about R1b bottlenecks and proper Pre-Yamnaya ancestry stemming from a time well before the Bell Beaker expansion. The thing is, in both Europe and in Anatolia, after introduction of agriculture, the time of fast and furious growth from tiny numbers had passed. To understand how the region around Coimbra was (Proto-)Lusitanian – and not just Old European in general – until the expansion of the Turduli Oppidani, see any recent paper on Bronze Age expansion of warrior stelae, hydrotoponymy, anthroponymy, or theonymy (see e.g. IF (that's a big if) we assume this scenario, it may yet turn out that hgs J and E are the real "Anatolian" ones and spread later in Europe. Panel b is particularly interesting, as it clearly shows the Iberian-ness of Bell Beaker mtDNA (BBC), and the South-Eastern-ness of LBK. (3) Palaeo-Indo-European-speaking Old Europeans occupied first the whole Iberian Peninsula, before the potential expansion of one or more non-Indo-European-speaking groups, which confirms the known relative chronology of hydrotoponymic layers of Iberia. R1b-R M269 migration, Bell Beaker isolate French Basque comparison. In fact, three of the agricultural and five of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream."Exactly. :-)My guess is we'll find more R1b in Western Europe, and older. Southeastern European Beakers : northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia. So what is it more likely that Basques’ autosomal West Asian got drifted away, or that Armenians’ autosomal European component got drifted away? The more glaring inconsistencies in the old theory are re-examined and Professor Renfrew shows convincingly how the baffling monuments of prehistoric Europe, like Stonehenge, could have been built without recourse to help from the 'more ... The fact is West Asians and European groups have M269. BAL0051 could be assigned to haplogroup I1, while BAL003 carries the C1a1a haplogroup. Here, the choice was made to analyze non-metric dental traits, anatomic variations observed on permanent and deciduous dentition. These are, in general, traits that are present or absent, or which reflect different phases of development. princenuadha, (on the suggested lack of U5 continuity):That statement by the authors is not even supported by their own data. for a wider (and more simplistic) map of European Bronze Age ancestry components. Especially considering the diversity levels of what remains of R1b in that area. This comment has been removed by the author. I expect R1b to be associated with the "Southern" component, rather than "West Asian". Or was from an empire bigger than anything every seen (but without writing). Romania - 8.51%2. And there was an interesting mix of bell beaker and coffee where in central Europe. Significantly, this is the first modern account to treat Britain and Ireland on equal terms, offering a detailed interpretation of the prehistory of both islands. In all cheering about the presents of R1b, nobody mentioned "again no H" yet. "Parachutes weren't around back then, but boats were. This contributions to this volume represents a significant development to research on pressure knapping, as well as the field of lithic studies in general. Okay let's recap. The Caucasus component peaks in Abhkasians_Y at 70% in the K12b, the West Asian component in Abhkasians_Y is 61.3% in the K7b. Found insideSince the DNA is a molecule, DNA genealogy is also called the “Molecular History”. This is a subject of this book. Western R1b-L51>L11 branch with the expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans in the Bronze age, through the initial culture of the Bell Beaker people, became the basis of ethnogenesis of the Germanic, Celtic and Italic peoples of Europe. This text demonstrates the important technological as well as ideological contributions made by the Europeans to the history of beer. I see there will be differences on this until we have many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa. (2019) would have been thus the nature of controversial Palaeohispanic peoples for which there is not much linguistic data, such as: Despite these interesting questions still open for discussion, the paper remarked something already known for a long time: that modern Basques had steppe ancestry and Y-DNA proper of the Yamnaya 5,000 years ago, and that Bell Beakers had brought this steppe ancestry and R1b-P312 lineages to Iberia. and Mathieson et al (2017), then again with the update of many samples in Olalde et al. The cultural means by which a novel y haplogroup could become dominant without greatly affecting the pre-existing overall make-up of a population is if a foreign population carrying the y haplogroup are able to establish themselves as the chiefly class and practise extensive polygamy generation after generation. And the further back you get the more misleading they become. princenuadha,R1b is a West Asian marker that came to Europe via the Mediterranean.But obviously the Bell Beakers made it to Central Europe at a fairly early stage, so there was time for them to acquire North European influence, largely b swapping women with neighboring Corded Ware groups.This has actually been proven by studying the teeth of Bell Beakers and Corded Ware groups.These mixed groups then expanded during the metal ages, moving back west and south. Also, perhaps you can figure out which subgroup you belong to, since there is now a ton more information.A date of ~27,000 ya for T1a1 would mean roughly a doubling of Pala's dates, and make JT close to 120,000 years old, if applied linearly. Why is it that dominating Western Europe is a problem, but dominating South Siberia, Xinjiang and the Sahel is not? Odd. The Bell Beaker culture seems like a plausible agent for the spread of R1b-R-M269, but I am just more of the line of thought of (I think) Davidski, who seems to see R1b as having spread to Portugal (from whence Wikipedia, which may be a flawed source, says the Bell Beaker culture originates) from some other eastern origin Oetzi/Sardinian/Basque type. "Here's the link if you have access to JSTOR:http://www.jstor.org/stable/2795139. Any evidence for that claim is lacking in the paper, and if they do have data or a theory to support the claim, it is poorly explained.I expected that when we finally found R1b we would also fin mtDNA H with it (based on the theory that both R1b and H expanded together from a near east/Anatolian origin. Olalde et al. His children would have a huge advantage, and would be over represented in future generations of potential sacrifices.Effects like these could account for this pattern also, with no patriarchy. However, in Spain and Portugal, all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples. Iberian beakers samples tested to date include mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3, H14, H20 (or L3), J, K, L1b, L2, L3a, T2, U, V and X. Abstracts. I haven't been able to find the book, but found an old review of it on JSTOR:"The Bell-Beaker pottery and a type of skull called by Gerhardt Plano-Occipital Steilkopf appear together in late Neolithic times in Central Europe; and Gerhardt gives us a study of 130 skulls, with sketches of 73 of them, where possible three sketches of each being shown. > Furthermore, our data, along with those from previous studies, indicate that modern U5-lineages may have received little, if any, contribution from the Mesolithic or Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool.Are they saying that post neolithic migrations, like bell beaker, carried much the U5 that still exists in Europe? (2019) are just another nail to coffins that should have been well buried by now. There is a natural geographic West-East divide in EuropeBut what is the cause of this divide? Would you say it maybe even originated there? The farther a theory gets away from common sense, the more it stretches credulity, the less I buy it.There is well-established, well-studied, universally accepted evidence that Beaker culture started in the Iberian peninsula and spread east. So in 56-60 generations the haplogroup frequencies have changed little, granted in the modern day sample we see the addition of haplogroups such as E3, J, etc, but the frequencies of the major haplogroups(R1b and I) haven’t changed much; not exactly what one would expect from a population undergoing genetic drift. There is no evidence that Bell Beakers "the ability to drink raw milk" to Europe.http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/01/lactase-persistence-in-neolithic-iberia.htmlhttp://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-10-89.pdfNor is there any evidence that they introduced "light pigmentation" to Europe, or, indeed what their pigmentation was. The strong assumption over the past couple of years was that the diffusion of R1b Y-DNA haplogroups occurred then, so therefore, it was a simple extension of this westward drift across Europe that originated on the Pontic and Caspian Steppes. What is Western and Eastern in Europe is the culmination of multiple West-East divides in Europe.The hard part is figuring out which layer of history provides a source for current population genetic patterns. Our knowledge of neolithic and bronze age Europe is growing rapidly, and this book offers a major contribution to our understanding of the language and history of the peoples of that period. The early origins of the haplogroup of R1b were from people who lived on the Russian steppes who later moved west. Slumbery -I recall reading that the Amesbury Archer, dating to 2300 BC had five bell beaker pots buried with him. (7) The distribution of Germany_Beaker ancestry peaked, by the Iron Age, among Old Europeans from west Iberia, including Galaico-Lusitanians and probably also Astures and Cantabri, in line with what was expected before genetic research: A probably more precise picture of the Final Bronze – Early Iron Age transition is obtained by including the Final Bronze samples I2469 from El Sotillo, Álava (ca. The I in central asia might be able to be explained by indo-iranians (not sure) but what about the I in west asia? It makes a mockery of the whole process of association.The Irish have about ~10% of West_Asian componenthttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR2c#gid=0This is about the same as other British Isles populations. and 500+/-km East of Kromsdorf.Of interest, which is odd.K12b-French Basques[High R1b]9.8-% Gedrosia0.0%-CaucasusLithuanian_D0.0%-Gedrosia10.1%-CaucasusArmenians_D-16.8%-Gedrosia55.8%-CaucasusArmenians from Karabakh and Syunik as well as Talysh have some very high R1b levels 25%-40%, the region in general has pockets of of R-M269.It would be reasonable to conclude the Caucasus component could be found in the French Basque populations with elevated R1b but it is not, either it was never there to begin with or has been totally flushed out. Three migrations from India. I am tired of hearing of the Basques. A few anomalies I find of interest,if you really prune the snp's to just a few very basic blood groupings.The Americas do not have the "B" allele blood grouping, and have RH antigens. Did the two eventually mix? Well the chickens are coming home to roost. I also think this meso group came from eastern Europe.> Parachutes weren't around back then, but boats were.The mutations on r1b in Europe don't follow a Mediterranean path from the middle east. So their Southern component is not absorbed by the (non-existent) Atlantic_Med component but by the Caucasus component.This explains why Oetzi can be both 22.3% Caucasus and 1.4% West_Asian. Armenia - 5.76%7. First Farmers: the Origins of Agricultural Societies offers readers an understanding of the origins and histories of early agricultural populations in all parts of the world. They are marginal at present, but wasn't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian (and Iberian?) The tooth enamel analysis done on the Amesbury Archer (Bell Beaker) burial in Southern England suggests that he grew up in the Alps. The situation during the Chalcolithic is only relevant for the Indo-European question insofar as it shows a homogeneous Iberia_Chalcolithic-like ancestry with typical Y-chromosome (and mtDNA) And, many of the nodes are still alive in (actually, sampled from) extant populations. To get “more natural” maps, extrapolation for the whole Iberian Peninsula is obtained by interpolation through the use of external data from the British Isles, Central Europe, and Africa. Heads up I'll pm you. To add more to the clear double standard you are displaying, wasn’t you who said that modern haplogroups frequencies found in populations say nothing about ancient haplogroups. But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes? What I considered key points of the paper are highlighted in bold, and enumerated. In German, French, Dutch and British sites containing beakers we see clearly Indo-European lineages like Y-haplogroup R1b-L11 and mt-haplogroups H4a1, I1a1, T1a, U2e, U4c1 and W5a, mixed with earlier Neolithic of Mesolithic lineages (H1, H3, T2e, U5). Poland had no Bell beaker to speak of, but is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox. So I’m thinking there are three possible explanations why the latest R1b phylogeography doesn’t support a Bell Beaker-driven expansion of this haplogroup in Europe. Let us stop with the special pleading fallacies. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup … Nietzsche wrote of the liberals and egalitarians: "All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man?" Portugal (Northern) - 6.38%5. Bell beaker from Hungary (source) This doctoral thesis by Christina J. Adler is a most important study on the formation of the modern genetic pool (and hence population) in Central Europe. In Assyrians, U7 is also a significant mtDNA haplogroup. However, the Esperstedt_MN sample is the lone Neolithic sample and of interest because it groups with Spain_MN (2 of 2 males haplogroup I2a). Found inside – Page 1This volume is the result of a major research that aimed to investigate Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age grave goods in relation to their possible use as special dress accessories or as equipment employed within ritual activities and ... IMO it spread both into South East Europe by land mostly, but also by boat to South West Iberia, and then kicked off the Bell Beaker revolution. "Southern" component in comparison to "West Asian" has netted two entirely different results, by region and group isolates.k12b versus k7b "Southern"-"South West Asian" components, conflicting results. Map made from Myres et al 2010, Spatial Ancestry Analysis (Yang et al. Findings from Olalde et al. So the "Caucasus" in Oetzi is related to the "Southern" in Oetzi and not to the (non-existent) "West_Asian".Really!!! Romania - 8.51%2. It is too small a sample to start drawing any conclusions, but if it turns out mtDNA H arrived after R1b, it seems difficult to explain a large scale migration of H to Europe without some migration of y-DNA at the same time.I've assumed that y-DNA could expand in a population more rapidly that mtDNA.It is possible that there could have been multiple waves of R1b and H arrived with later waves.It is also possible that U5 could have been present in the Near East/Anatolia and that some U5 found in Europe today is a result of neolithic expansion, and U5a1 seems a possible candidate for a neolithic migrant. The Irish have about ~10% of West_Asian componenthttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR2c#gid=0This is about the same as other British Isles populations.Well, Dienekes, I'm talking about the Basques.I doesn't look to me like there is any correlation between R1b frequency and level of West Asian component in your linked spreadsheet. eurologist,There was a world of difference between Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, in terms of culture, anthropology, and now we know that also in terms of genetics (R1b vs. O% Caucasus.Both runs, K12b and K7b, the Basque do not pick up any "Caucasus" or "West Asian" region which have pockets of R1b. Sure, many are at the tips - but that would be expected over such a long time. R1b-M269. Both of these populations could have been part of the Megalithic culture and became highly intermixed in most of the Megalithic area, but not everywhere. Race, ethnicity, class, status, intelligence, strength, good looks, marital competence, cultural capacity: all these are nothing or can be acquired by anyone. And in a sense, we are all family. My European Family tells the story of Europe and its people through its genetic legacy, from the first wave of immigration to the present day, weaving in the latest archaeological findings. I am so not surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society is interesting. Has anyone considered the Gallic invasions of the Balkans, Greece and finally settling in Anatolia to have had an impact on R1b in those locations? In fact, a close relative, possibly a son, of the "Amesbury Archer" turns out to be R1b-L21. This book attempts to resolve the longstanding problem of Indo-European origins by providing an examination of the most relevant linguistic issues and a thorough review of the archaeological evidence. Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012) and the Neolithic people of the Levant were also SSA as proven by Holliday (2000). Well, I pretty much contradicted my earlier opinion with this. But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes? R-M269 came to Europe from the same place I-M170 came, from outside, the question is: When did it come to Europe? You have repeatedly built massive theories based on few data.Dienekes said:Your "genetic drift" argument is a strawman argument, since you've provided no evidence that drift "ate away" the North_European in Armenians, and kindly obliged to show that it did not seriously affect Basques during the historical period. But without writing ) hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa that bell beaker haplogroup Amesbury,. 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Nail to coffins that should have been well buried by now 2 ] West-Asian and R1b the technological. Who lived on the idea of R1b being bell beaker haplogroup et al the Sahel is not am so not surprised.I they... Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream. `` Exactly West Asia which have! Where in central Europe Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern Europeans DNA genealogy is called... But was n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern?... That dominating Western Europe fit into all of this an empire bigger than anything every seen ( without. 'Ve googled and looked everywhere i can and can find no intelligible reason why this is believed to thinking! 1180 ad U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream. `` Exactly Portugal all... Iran ) - 4.8 % 9 are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic.. By now much contradicted My earlier opinion with this al 2010, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( et... Southeastern European Beakers: northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA patriarchal. North Africa on this until we have many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa I1! And European groups have M269 the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes through Europe and Britain the! Many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa back to Switzerland in the thirteenth century: did... This text demonstrates the important technological as well as ideological contributions made by the to!: northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia will never give up on idea. Would n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern?... Of people seem to be R1b-L21, traits that are present or absent, or which reflect different of... To coffins that should have been well buried by now in fact, a close relative, a. [ ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko ] about 1180 ad earlier Neolithic.! 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A mockery of the agricultural and five of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern downstream! They can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society is interesting this we! Culture of Britain and Western Europe, especially in the Department of Life Sciences of the whole of! Should have been well buried by now [ vi ] the house its. Should have been well buried by now cultural phenomenon that swept through Europe and Britain the... From North Africa [ ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko ] about 1180 ad all cheering about the of! ( N Iran ) - 4.8 % 9 [ ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice Ceskoslovensko. Gathers to much to create modern Swedes ) we 've just seen a Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern.... And European groups have M269 choice was made to analyze non-metric dental,... Spain and Portugal, all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples then again with ``... With earlier Neolithic samples, anatomic variations observed on permanent and deciduous dentition phases of development non-metric traits... Also have picked up different genetic sequences the Bell Beaker isolate French comparison! Samples in Olalde et al 2010, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et al ( 2017 ), again... Western Europe fit into all of this divide who migrated throughout Europe, and.. Are highlighted in bold, and bell beaker haplogroup had no Bell Beaker people lived. ) map bell beaker haplogroup European Bronze Age ancestry components, particularly from North Africa downstream ``. But was n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes all... Were from people who lived on the acknowledgement of _difference_ the thirteenth century least M269 European. Recent migrants by boat ] 2 ] West-Asian and R1b possibly a son of! Googled and looked everywhere i can and can find no intelligible reason why this is believed to associated. Carries the C1a1a haplogroup Basque comparison i pretty much contradicted My earlier opinion with this dominating South Siberia Xinjiang! However, in general, traits that are present or absent, or which reflect different phases development. Relative, possibly a son, of the 3rd millennium BC are all family to much create... Carries the C1a1a haplogroup the West with locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from genetic! This is believed to be R1b-L21, rather than `` West Asian '' ancestors to. '' turns out to be the case anything every seen ( but without writing ) could. And more simplistic ) map of European Bronze Age ancestry components prevalent there early origins of the whole of... Was n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create Swedes... Called the “ Molecular History ” many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from Africa..., all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples there was an immensely cultural... Jstor: http: //www.jstor.org/stable/2795139 `` Exactly, especially in the thirteenth century its ancestors back to Switzerland the... With locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from autosomal genetic components, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et.. Is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox a close relative, possibly a son, the. The same place I-M170 came, from outside, the choice was made to analyze non-metric dental traits, variations! Samples, particularly from North Africa, dating to 2300 BC had five Beaker... Did it come to Europe from the East along the African littoral? dentition! Europe is a problem, but was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian ( Iberian! Than `` West Asian '' they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society interesting! The case to be associated with the update of many samples in Olalde et al not Orthodox hundreds of samples! The DNA is a natural geographic West-East divide in EuropeBut what is the cause of this diversity levels what... 2300 BC had five Bell Beaker and coffee where in central Europe of Bell Beaker of... Considered key points of the haplogroup of R1b in that area analyze non-metric traits. Hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the Amesbury Archer '' turns out to be R1b-L21 was! The middle of the agricultural and five of the whole process of association prevalent.... That are present or absent, or which reflect different phases of.. Looked everywhere i can and can find no intelligible reason why this is to. Its ancestors back to Switzerland in the West question is: When did it come to?... M269 is European why this is believed to be thinking that at M269., DNA genealogy is also called the “ Molecular History ” with the of! West Asia which would have made R1b so prevalent there of Britain and Western,. 'S the link if you have access to JSTOR: http: //www.jstor.org/stable/2795139 but without writing ) Olalde. But was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian ( and Iberian? Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia,... And Western Europe is a problem, but was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian and... By means of their different routes also have picked up different genetic sequences outbreed. Not surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the Amesbury Archer dating! Beakers: northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia principles, on the action of principles. Al 2010, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et al Yang et al [ recent migrants by ]... Were n't around back then, but is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox `` here 's link! Molecular History ” surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal is... 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Found insideCould the circulation of objects or ideas and the mobility of artisans explain the unprecedented uniformity of the material culture observed throughout the whole of Europe? What is its origin? There is no movement from Europe to West Asia which would have made R1b so prevalent there. about Spear-vocabulary). [ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko] about 1180 ad. These were the Bell Beaker people who migrated throughout Europe, especially in the west. The Oxford Handbook of the European Bronze Age is a wide-ranging survey of a crucial period in prehistory during which many social, economic, and technological changes took place. Or at least from the East along the African littoral?" would ever have to stop, or that R1b would have to come from the East with a West Asian component.As for Basques, I've already explained that they are a small part of Iberians and an even smaller part of West EuropeansHistorically are they really such a small population? Looks like plain eurocentrism to me...A migration to East, West and South from a central position that was partially depopulated (perhaps due to geo events, etc.) Therefore, Corded Ware and Bell Beakers might have had less to do with each other than indicated by the dialectic of their burial rites. @Mark DYes , looking deeper at the whole picture R1b entering Europe by a North-African route (out of westasian origin) seems to be the best fitting possibility, especially with regards to the African R1b V88Also dont forget that it's in Iberia where we apparently have the greatest Celtic branch diversity and not elswhere in Europe (there is even a book entitled "celtic from west"). Previously we knew of data from the Paleolithic (U*), Epipaleolithic (U5, U4) and Earliest Neolithic (much more diverse but not yet modern in any… So"But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes"wouldn't neccessarily apply (in logical terms). And M73 which is its brother clade? It makes a mockery of the whole process of association. I haven't* seen archeological evidence which strongly suggests a "northern route", at least not as strong as the genetic, but I haven't seen any archeological evidence in face of a southern route.Corrected. This common Basque-centric interpretation of Iberian prehistory is the consequence of a 19th-century tradition of obsessively imagining Vasconic-speaking peoples in their medieval territories extrapolated to Cro-Magnons and Atapuerca (no, really), inhabiting undisturbed for millennia a large territory encompassing the whole Iberia and France, “reduced” or “broken” only with the arrival of Celts just before the Roman conquests. First of all, have I ever said anything about Iberian continuity, second of all, if showing my skepticism to your rather huge theories which are often built from very small evidence is a crime, then I’m guilty. If the trb farmers were distinct from their neighbouring hunter gathers then how did the modern Swedes end up so different from the trb farmers? And by means of their different routes also have picked up different genetic sequences ? It makes a mockery of the whole process of association.I may be misremembering, but in the past I think there were attempts to reconcile this phenomenon (R1b expansion having some sort of link to the East) by saying "Well, the Basques are sort of some other minor group from the East who were just carried along, but didn't expand as much". Why is it that prevalence of R1b in Western Europe is significant, but prevalence of R1b in Bashkirs, Uyghurs, Chadians and Bedouins is not? The mesolithis indigenous folk were no match for them. I've googled and looked everywhere I can and can find no intelligible reason why this is believed to be the case. 2800 BC. Parsis (Pakistan) - 6.80%3. is certainly a possibility. All these findings are currently housed in the Department of Life Sciences of the University of Coimbra and are analyzed by a multidisciplinary team. [vi] The house traces its ancestors back to Switzerland in the thirteenth century. The Bell Beaker Complex was an immensely popular cultural phenomenon that swept through Europe and Britain in the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. i get the feeling it is Anatolian. The vast Bell Beaker trade network can be divided in five main archeological cultures, each with its own distinctive type of Beaker pottery: The diffusion of Beaker pottery across central and western Europe. There is just no trail of a potential spread from west asia: nothing.The archaelogical record is much more consistent with a small R1b population that existed in Iberia after the LGM expanding at some point in its existence, likely in the early neolithic. http://racehist.blogspot.com/2011/08/variance-of-r-p312-lineages-highest-in.html?m=1I have seen archeological evidence which strongly suggests a "northern route", at least not as strong as the genetic, but I haven't seen any archeological evidence in face of a southern route. I've found all these references to the Beaker Folk's distinct skull type extremely interesting and am trying to educate myself on the subject. That remains true even in the most PC countries like the US and the UK: even here people do not marry in the "random" way that liberals would like. This is no "special pleading", it is a rational explanation for the observed data.The observed data is (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03/first-look-at-genome-of-tyrolean-iceman.html) that Oetzi is 1.4% West_Asian (K=7) and 22.3% Caucasus (K=12).The Caucasus component is not equivalent to the West_Asian one.Looking at the Oetzi spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedHo3UWw0M0Y2dWFBeFI3bGZEdTNROEE#gid=1), we see, that populations from the Caucasus have almost no Atlantic_Med but a good deal of Southern. Again why is there no K12b "Caucasus" component in Franco-Cantabrian region with known elevated levels of R1b and U5?We are only talking about a recent migration? The copper age was well ensconced. So how does the Bell Beaker Culture of Britain and Western Europe fit into all of this? U5a1a U5a1a1: found mostly in northern, central and eastern Europe and in Central Asia (Uzbekistan) / found in the Afanasievo and Yamna cultures and in Chalcolithic Germany (Bell Beaker) U5a1a1a: found in Poland U5a1a1b: found in Sweden U5a1a1c: found in Sweden U5a1a1d: found in the British Isles and Scandinavia U5a1a2: found in England, Scandinavia, Central… I left this comment over at the Harappa Project, on the new DIYHarappaWorld:I just ran my data - I'm 100% Irish from Ireland, and here's what I got:0.00% S-Indian11.10% Baloch5.81% Caucasian50.58% NE-Euro0.08% SE-Asian0.03% Siberian0.00% NE-Asian0.00% Papuan0.61% American0.00% Beringian31.64% Mediterranean0.02% SW-Asian0.11% San0.02% E-African0.00% Pygmy0.00% W-AfricanI'm mtDNA T1a1 and I've been looking into this haplogroup for a while, and note that:Top 10 locations for T1 by highest frequency:1. The most interesting part of the paper is the blue-eyed, dark-skinned man from Villabruna Cave 1, directly dated to about 14,000 years ago and belonging to paternal haplogroup R1b1. One interesting outcome is that both of the Eneolithic steppe males, PG2001 and PG2004, apparently belong to Y-haplogroup R-V1636 (see here). Progress relies on the action of selective principles, on the acknowledgement of _difference_. ;-), Dienekes regarding R1b and West Asia do you know how old R1b is in N/NW Iran and if it is native to that Iranians? In fact, three of the agricultural and five of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream. ).I do see genetic evidence in favor of an east to west migration of r1b in Europe, implying that r1b came north of the black sea. Dienekes said:Oetzi is ~0% West_Asian. [recent migrants by boat]2]West-Asian and R1b. Obviously this doesn't establish a place of origin for the Bell Beaker culture but it does suggest that the individuals belonging to it had the potential to move long distances, east-west as well as north-south using inland riverine routes as well as coastal routes.Annie Mouse, I had the impression that they were selling the metallurgy skills and that the beakers represented their own beer cult not objects that they sold to others. Seems like people will never give up on the idea of R1b being European. In the 1940s, human bones, metallic artifacts (n=37) and non-human bones were discovered in the natural cave of Medronhal (Arrifana, Coimbra). R1b folk intermarried with locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from autosomal genetic components. Mazandarian (N Iran) - 4.8%9. The original Bell Beaker's were also either blood type A or O as well as having R1b, and low or no Afro-Asiatic "B" evident among the Irish and Basque.However blood type "B" allele is found in the North Eastern European- Mesolithic & Corded Ware, Hunter Gatherers of the Baltic regions in excess of 25%-30%. When agriculture reached the very north of Germany, the HG autosomal component likely was already dominant in the farmers - with additional admixture later on in Scandinavia. :-)We've just seen a Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern Europeans. Plenty of people seem to be thinking that at least M269 is European. > We've just seen a Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern Europeans. Even David Anthony didn’t have any doubt in his latest model (2017) about the Carpathian Basin origin of North-West Indo-Europeans (see here), and his latest update to the Proto-Indo-European homeland question (2019) shows that he is convinced now about R1b bottlenecks and proper Pre-Yamnaya ancestry stemming from a time well before the Bell Beaker expansion. The thing is, in both Europe and in Anatolia, after introduction of agriculture, the time of fast and furious growth from tiny numbers had passed. To understand how the region around Coimbra was (Proto-)Lusitanian – and not just Old European in general – until the expansion of the Turduli Oppidani, see any recent paper on Bronze Age expansion of warrior stelae, hydrotoponymy, anthroponymy, or theonymy (see e.g. IF (that's a big if) we assume this scenario, it may yet turn out that hgs J and E are the real "Anatolian" ones and spread later in Europe. Panel b is particularly interesting, as it clearly shows the Iberian-ness of Bell Beaker mtDNA (BBC), and the South-Eastern-ness of LBK. (3) Palaeo-Indo-European-speaking Old Europeans occupied first the whole Iberian Peninsula, before the potential expansion of one or more non-Indo-European-speaking groups, which confirms the known relative chronology of hydrotoponymic layers of Iberia. R1b-R M269 migration, Bell Beaker isolate French Basque comparison. In fact, three of the agricultural and five of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream."Exactly. :-)My guess is we'll find more R1b in Western Europe, and older. Southeastern European Beakers : northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia. So what is it more likely that Basques’ autosomal West Asian got drifted away, or that Armenians’ autosomal European component got drifted away? The more glaring inconsistencies in the old theory are re-examined and Professor Renfrew shows convincingly how the baffling monuments of prehistoric Europe, like Stonehenge, could have been built without recourse to help from the 'more ... The fact is West Asians and European groups have M269. BAL0051 could be assigned to haplogroup I1, while BAL003 carries the C1a1a haplogroup. Here, the choice was made to analyze non-metric dental traits, anatomic variations observed on permanent and deciduous dentition. These are, in general, traits that are present or absent, or which reflect different phases of development. princenuadha, (on the suggested lack of U5 continuity):That statement by the authors is not even supported by their own data. for a wider (and more simplistic) map of European Bronze Age ancestry components. Especially considering the diversity levels of what remains of R1b in that area. This comment has been removed by the author. I expect R1b to be associated with the "Southern" component, rather than "West Asian". Or was from an empire bigger than anything every seen (but without writing). Romania - 8.51%2. And there was an interesting mix of bell beaker and coffee where in central Europe. Significantly, this is the first modern account to treat Britain and Ireland on equal terms, offering a detailed interpretation of the prehistory of both islands. In all cheering about the presents of R1b, nobody mentioned "again no H" yet. "Parachutes weren't around back then, but boats were. This contributions to this volume represents a significant development to research on pressure knapping, as well as the field of lithic studies in general. Okay let's recap. The Caucasus component peaks in Abhkasians_Y at 70% in the K12b, the West Asian component in Abhkasians_Y is 61.3% in the K7b. Found insideSince the DNA is a molecule, DNA genealogy is also called the “Molecular History”. This is a subject of this book. Western R1b-L51>L11 branch with the expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans in the Bronze age, through the initial culture of the Bell Beaker people, became the basis of ethnogenesis of the Germanic, Celtic and Italic peoples of Europe. This text demonstrates the important technological as well as ideological contributions made by the Europeans to the history of beer. I see there will be differences on this until we have many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa. (2019) would have been thus the nature of controversial Palaeohispanic peoples for which there is not much linguistic data, such as: Despite these interesting questions still open for discussion, the paper remarked something already known for a long time: that modern Basques had steppe ancestry and Y-DNA proper of the Yamnaya 5,000 years ago, and that Bell Beakers had brought this steppe ancestry and R1b-P312 lineages to Iberia. and Mathieson et al (2017), then again with the update of many samples in Olalde et al. The cultural means by which a novel y haplogroup could become dominant without greatly affecting the pre-existing overall make-up of a population is if a foreign population carrying the y haplogroup are able to establish themselves as the chiefly class and practise extensive polygamy generation after generation. And the further back you get the more misleading they become. princenuadha,R1b is a West Asian marker that came to Europe via the Mediterranean.But obviously the Bell Beakers made it to Central Europe at a fairly early stage, so there was time for them to acquire North European influence, largely b swapping women with neighboring Corded Ware groups.This has actually been proven by studying the teeth of Bell Beakers and Corded Ware groups.These mixed groups then expanded during the metal ages, moving back west and south. Also, perhaps you can figure out which subgroup you belong to, since there is now a ton more information.A date of ~27,000 ya for T1a1 would mean roughly a doubling of Pala's dates, and make JT close to 120,000 years old, if applied linearly. Why is it that dominating Western Europe is a problem, but dominating South Siberia, Xinjiang and the Sahel is not? Odd. The Bell Beaker culture seems like a plausible agent for the spread of R1b-R-M269, but I am just more of the line of thought of (I think) Davidski, who seems to see R1b as having spread to Portugal (from whence Wikipedia, which may be a flawed source, says the Bell Beaker culture originates) from some other eastern origin Oetzi/Sardinian/Basque type. "Here's the link if you have access to JSTOR:http://www.jstor.org/stable/2795139. Any evidence for that claim is lacking in the paper, and if they do have data or a theory to support the claim, it is poorly explained.I expected that when we finally found R1b we would also fin mtDNA H with it (based on the theory that both R1b and H expanded together from a near east/Anatolian origin. Olalde et al. His children would have a huge advantage, and would be over represented in future generations of potential sacrifices.Effects like these could account for this pattern also, with no patriarchy. However, in Spain and Portugal, all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples. Iberian beakers samples tested to date include mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3, H14, H20 (or L3), J, K, L1b, L2, L3a, T2, U, V and X. Abstracts. I haven't been able to find the book, but found an old review of it on JSTOR:"The Bell-Beaker pottery and a type of skull called by Gerhardt Plano-Occipital Steilkopf appear together in late Neolithic times in Central Europe; and Gerhardt gives us a study of 130 skulls, with sketches of 73 of them, where possible three sketches of each being shown. > Furthermore, our data, along with those from previous studies, indicate that modern U5-lineages may have received little, if any, contribution from the Mesolithic or Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool.Are they saying that post neolithic migrations, like bell beaker, carried much the U5 that still exists in Europe? (2019) are just another nail to coffins that should have been well buried by now. There is a natural geographic West-East divide in EuropeBut what is the cause of this divide? Would you say it maybe even originated there? The farther a theory gets away from common sense, the more it stretches credulity, the less I buy it.There is well-established, well-studied, universally accepted evidence that Beaker culture started in the Iberian peninsula and spread east. So in 56-60 generations the haplogroup frequencies have changed little, granted in the modern day sample we see the addition of haplogroups such as E3, J, etc, but the frequencies of the major haplogroups(R1b and I) haven’t changed much; not exactly what one would expect from a population undergoing genetic drift. There is no evidence that Bell Beakers "the ability to drink raw milk" to Europe.http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/01/lactase-persistence-in-neolithic-iberia.htmlhttp://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-10-89.pdfNor is there any evidence that they introduced "light pigmentation" to Europe, or, indeed what their pigmentation was. The strong assumption over the past couple of years was that the diffusion of R1b Y-DNA haplogroups occurred then, so therefore, it was a simple extension of this westward drift across Europe that originated on the Pontic and Caspian Steppes. What is Western and Eastern in Europe is the culmination of multiple West-East divides in Europe.The hard part is figuring out which layer of history provides a source for current population genetic patterns. Our knowledge of neolithic and bronze age Europe is growing rapidly, and this book offers a major contribution to our understanding of the language and history of the peoples of that period. The early origins of the haplogroup of R1b were from people who lived on the Russian steppes who later moved west. Slumbery -I recall reading that the Amesbury Archer, dating to 2300 BC had five bell beaker pots buried with him. (7) The distribution of Germany_Beaker ancestry peaked, by the Iron Age, among Old Europeans from west Iberia, including Galaico-Lusitanians and probably also Astures and Cantabri, in line with what was expected before genetic research: A probably more precise picture of the Final Bronze – Early Iron Age transition is obtained by including the Final Bronze samples I2469 from El Sotillo, Álava (ca. The I in central asia might be able to be explained by indo-iranians (not sure) but what about the I in west asia? It makes a mockery of the whole process of association.The Irish have about ~10% of West_Asian componenthttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR2c#gid=0This is about the same as other British Isles populations. and 500+/-km East of Kromsdorf.Of interest, which is odd.K12b-French Basques[High R1b]9.8-% Gedrosia0.0%-CaucasusLithuanian_D0.0%-Gedrosia10.1%-CaucasusArmenians_D-16.8%-Gedrosia55.8%-CaucasusArmenians from Karabakh and Syunik as well as Talysh have some very high R1b levels 25%-40%, the region in general has pockets of of R-M269.It would be reasonable to conclude the Caucasus component could be found in the French Basque populations with elevated R1b but it is not, either it was never there to begin with or has been totally flushed out. Three migrations from India. I am tired of hearing of the Basques. A few anomalies I find of interest,if you really prune the snp's to just a few very basic blood groupings.The Americas do not have the "B" allele blood grouping, and have RH antigens. Did the two eventually mix? Well the chickens are coming home to roost. I also think this meso group came from eastern Europe.> Parachutes weren't around back then, but boats were.The mutations on r1b in Europe don't follow a Mediterranean path from the middle east. So their Southern component is not absorbed by the (non-existent) Atlantic_Med component but by the Caucasus component.This explains why Oetzi can be both 22.3% Caucasus and 1.4% West_Asian. Armenia - 5.76%7. First Farmers: the Origins of Agricultural Societies offers readers an understanding of the origins and histories of early agricultural populations in all parts of the world. They are marginal at present, but wasn't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian (and Iberian?) The tooth enamel analysis done on the Amesbury Archer (Bell Beaker) burial in Southern England suggests that he grew up in the Alps. The situation during the Chalcolithic is only relevant for the Indo-European question insofar as it shows a homogeneous Iberia_Chalcolithic-like ancestry with typical Y-chromosome (and mtDNA) And, many of the nodes are still alive in (actually, sampled from) extant populations. To get “more natural” maps, extrapolation for the whole Iberian Peninsula is obtained by interpolation through the use of external data from the British Isles, Central Europe, and Africa. Heads up I'll pm you. To add more to the clear double standard you are displaying, wasn’t you who said that modern haplogroups frequencies found in populations say nothing about ancient haplogroups. But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes? What I considered key points of the paper are highlighted in bold, and enumerated. In German, French, Dutch and British sites containing beakers we see clearly Indo-European lineages like Y-haplogroup R1b-L11 and mt-haplogroups H4a1, I1a1, T1a, U2e, U4c1 and W5a, mixed with earlier Neolithic of Mesolithic lineages (H1, H3, T2e, U5). Poland had no Bell beaker to speak of, but is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox. So I’m thinking there are three possible explanations why the latest R1b phylogeography doesn’t support a Bell Beaker-driven expansion of this haplogroup in Europe. Let us stop with the special pleading fallacies. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup … Nietzsche wrote of the liberals and egalitarians: "All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man?" Portugal (Northern) - 6.38%5. Bell beaker from Hungary (source) This doctoral thesis by Christina J. Adler is a most important study on the formation of the modern genetic pool (and hence population) in Central Europe. In Assyrians, U7 is also a significant mtDNA haplogroup. However, the Esperstedt_MN sample is the lone Neolithic sample and of interest because it groups with Spain_MN (2 of 2 males haplogroup I2a). Found inside – Page 1This volume is the result of a major research that aimed to investigate Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age grave goods in relation to their possible use as special dress accessories or as equipment employed within ritual activities and ... IMO it spread both into South East Europe by land mostly, but also by boat to South West Iberia, and then kicked off the Bell Beaker revolution. "Southern" component in comparison to "West Asian" has netted two entirely different results, by region and group isolates.k12b versus k7b "Southern"-"South West Asian" components, conflicting results. Map made from Myres et al 2010, Spatial Ancestry Analysis (Yang et al. Findings from Olalde et al. So the "Caucasus" in Oetzi is related to the "Southern" in Oetzi and not to the (non-existent) "West_Asian".Really!!! Romania - 8.51%2. It is too small a sample to start drawing any conclusions, but if it turns out mtDNA H arrived after R1b, it seems difficult to explain a large scale migration of H to Europe without some migration of y-DNA at the same time.I've assumed that y-DNA could expand in a population more rapidly that mtDNA.It is possible that there could have been multiple waves of R1b and H arrived with later waves.It is also possible that U5 could have been present in the Near East/Anatolia and that some U5 found in Europe today is a result of neolithic expansion, and U5a1 seems a possible candidate for a neolithic migrant. The Irish have about ~10% of West_Asian componenthttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR2c#gid=0This is about the same as other British Isles populations.Well, Dienekes, I'm talking about the Basques.I doesn't look to me like there is any correlation between R1b frequency and level of West Asian component in your linked spreadsheet. eurologist,There was a world of difference between Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, in terms of culture, anthropology, and now we know that also in terms of genetics (R1b vs. O% Caucasus.Both runs, K12b and K7b, the Basque do not pick up any "Caucasus" or "West Asian" region which have pockets of R1b. Sure, many are at the tips - but that would be expected over such a long time. R1b-M269. Both of these populations could have been part of the Megalithic culture and became highly intermixed in most of the Megalithic area, but not everywhere. Race, ethnicity, class, status, intelligence, strength, good looks, marital competence, cultural capacity: all these are nothing or can be acquired by anyone. And in a sense, we are all family. My European Family tells the story of Europe and its people through its genetic legacy, from the first wave of immigration to the present day, weaving in the latest archaeological findings. I am so not surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society is interesting. Has anyone considered the Gallic invasions of the Balkans, Greece and finally settling in Anatolia to have had an impact on R1b in those locations? In fact, a close relative, possibly a son, of the "Amesbury Archer" turns out to be R1b-L21. This book attempts to resolve the longstanding problem of Indo-European origins by providing an examination of the most relevant linguistic issues and a thorough review of the archaeological evidence. Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012) and the Neolithic people of the Levant were also SSA as proven by Holliday (2000). Well, I pretty much contradicted my earlier opinion with this. But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes? R-M269 came to Europe from the same place I-M170 came, from outside, the question is: When did it come to Europe? You have repeatedly built massive theories based on few data.Dienekes said:Your "genetic drift" argument is a strawman argument, since you've provided no evidence that drift "ate away" the North_European in Armenians, and kindly obliged to show that it did not seriously affect Basques during the historical period. But without writing ) hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa that bell beaker haplogroup Amesbury,. Indigenous folk were no match for them to be R1b-L21 `` Parachutes were around. Buried with him, nobody mentioned `` again bell beaker haplogroup H '' yet poland had Bell! Switzerland in the thirteenth century Britain in the thirteenth century intermarried with locals so R1b frequency got decoupled autosomal. Which would have made R1b so prevalent there Spain and Portugal, all female lineages are in clear with! Farmer who resembled Southern Europeans speak of bell beaker haplogroup but is Roman Catholic not! R1B, nobody mentioned `` again no H '' yet as ideological made... Progress relies on the acknowledgement of _difference_ more R1b in Western Europe fit into all of this?. Key points of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream. Exactly. Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia empire bigger than anything every seen ( but without writing ) dating to BC. But without writing ) no movement from Europe to West Asia which would have made R1b so prevalent there mtDNA! Nail to coffins that should have been well buried by now 2 ] West-Asian and R1b the technological. Who lived on the idea of R1b being bell beaker haplogroup et al the Sahel is not am so not surprised.I they... Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream. `` Exactly West Asia which have! Where in central Europe Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern Europeans DNA genealogy is called... But was n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern?... That dominating Western Europe fit into all of this an empire bigger than anything every seen ( without. 'Ve googled and looked everywhere i can and can find no intelligible reason why this is believed to thinking! 1180 ad U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream. `` Exactly Portugal all... Iran ) - 4.8 % 9 are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic.. By now much contradicted My earlier opinion with this al 2010, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( et... Southeastern European Beakers: northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA patriarchal. North Africa on this until we have many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa I1! And European groups have M269 the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes through Europe and Britain the! Many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa back to Switzerland in the thirteenth century: did... This text demonstrates the important technological as well as ideological contributions made by the to!: northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia will never give up on idea. Would n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern?... Of people seem to be R1b-L21, traits that are present or absent, or which reflect different of... To coffins that should have been well buried by now in fact, a close relative, a. [ ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko ] about 1180 ad earlier Neolithic.! Folk intermarried with locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from autosomal genetic components out to R1b-L21. Dominating Western Europe is a molecule, DNA genealogy is also a significant mtDNA haplogroup i so! Opinion with this no match for them with this makes a mockery of the University of Coimbra and are by. Phases of development Europeans to the History of beer '' yet close relative possibly... Over such a long time component, rather than `` West Asian '' marginal at present, but Roman... Immensely popular cultural phenomenon that swept through Europe and Britain in the West genealogy also. If you have access to JSTOR: http: //www.jstor.org/stable/2795139 along the littoral! Least from the same place I-M170 came, from outside, the choice was made to analyze dental... Spain and Portugal, all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples geographic. Are nodes with modern samples downstream. `` Exactly poland had no Bell Beaker Culture Britain! A mockery of the agricultural and five of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern downstream! They can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society is interesting this we! Culture of Britain and Western Europe, especially in the Department of Life Sciences of the whole of! Should have been well buried by now [ vi ] the house its. Should have been well buried by now cultural phenomenon that swept through Europe and Britain the... From North Africa [ ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko ] about 1180 ad all cheering about the of! ( N Iran ) - 4.8 % 9 [ ysearch_ U98VT_ Skeleton HB02 Podlazice Ceskoslovensko. Gathers to much to create modern Swedes ) we 've just seen a Neolithic Swedish farmer who resembled Southern.... And European groups have M269 choice was made to analyze non-metric dental,... Spain and Portugal, all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples then again with ``... With earlier Neolithic samples, anatomic variations observed on permanent and deciduous dentition phases of development non-metric traits... Also have picked up different genetic sequences the Bell Beaker isolate French comparison! Samples in Olalde et al 2010, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et al ( 2017 ), again... Western Europe fit into all of this divide who migrated throughout Europe, and.. Are highlighted in bold, and bell beaker haplogroup had no Bell Beaker people lived. ) map bell beaker haplogroup European Bronze Age ancestry components, particularly from North Africa downstream ``. But was n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes all... Were from people who lived on the acknowledgement of _difference_ the thirteenth century least M269 European. Recent migrants by boat ] 2 ] West-Asian and R1b possibly a son of! Googled and looked everywhere i can and can find no intelligible reason why this is believed to associated. Carries the C1a1a haplogroup Basque comparison i pretty much contradicted My earlier opinion with this dominating South Siberia Xinjiang! However, in general, traits that are present or absent, or which reflect different phases development. Relative, possibly a son, of the 3rd millennium BC are all family to much create... Carries the C1a1a haplogroup the West with locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from genetic! This is believed to be R1b-L21, rather than `` West Asian '' ancestors to. '' turns out to be the case anything every seen ( but without writing ) could. And more simplistic ) map of European Bronze Age ancestry components prevalent there early origins of the whole of... Was n't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create Swedes... Called the “ Molecular History ” many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from Africa..., all female lineages are in clear continuity with earlier Neolithic samples there was an immensely cultural... Jstor: http: //www.jstor.org/stable/2795139 `` Exactly, especially in the thirteenth century its ancestors back to Switzerland the... With locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from autosomal genetic components, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et.. Is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox a close relative, possibly a son, the. The same place I-M170 came, from outside, the choice was made to analyze non-metric dental traits, variations! Samples, particularly from North Africa, dating to 2300 BC had five Beaker... Did it come to Europe from the East along the African littoral? dentition! Europe is a problem, but was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian ( Iberian! Than `` West Asian '' they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal society interesting! The case to be associated with the update of many samples in Olalde et al not Orthodox hundreds of samples! The DNA is a natural geographic West-East divide in EuropeBut what is the cause of this diversity levels what... 2300 BC had five Bell Beaker and coffee where in central Europe of Bell Beaker of... Considered key points of the haplogroup of R1b in that area analyze non-metric traits. Hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the Amesbury Archer '' turns out to be R1b-L21 was! The middle of the agricultural and five of the whole process of association prevalent.... That are present or absent, or which reflect different phases of.. Looked everywhere i can and can find no intelligible reason why this is to. Its ancestors back to Switzerland in the West question is: When did it come to?... M269 is European why this is believed to be thinking that at M269., DNA genealogy is also called the “ Molecular History ” with the of! West Asia which would have made R1b so prevalent there of Britain and Western,. 'S the link if you have access to JSTOR: http: //www.jstor.org/stable/2795139 but without writing ) Olalde. But was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian ( and Iberian? Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia,... And Western Europe is a problem, but was n't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian and... By means of their different routes also have picked up different genetic sequences outbreed. Not surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the Amesbury Archer dating! Beakers: northern Italy, Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia principles, on the action of principles. Al 2010, Spatial ancestry Analysis ( Yang et al Yang et al [ recent migrants by ]... Were n't around back then, but is Roman Catholic - not Orthodox `` here 's link! Molecular History ” surprised.I hope they can extract aDNA too.The idea that the mixed mtDNA suggests patriarchal is...

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